With little more than a week to go

[xerinmichellex]

The BBC just released this "prequel" for the 50th Special of Doctor Who ("The Day of the Doctor"). This is really for rhoda_rants's benefit, as I know you're staying away from the internet regarding Doctor Who/the 12th Doctor. (Which incidentally, if his name happens to come up in the comments, please put it behind a spoiler cut.)

I'm saving my actual thoughts until after the special airs; but the prequel has pretty much confirmed all my fears. I'm going to try and enjoy the special as is. Truthfully, there are aspects about the storyline that make me angry and frustrated. Grrr.

Comments

[glitter-n-gore.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU!! Here in my "other" regeneration, which means I'm able to get to it now, yay.

I did squee a little when I saw Paul McGann, as I was under the impression we wouldn't see any of the previous actors. And in fairness, there is a huge chunk of time unaccounted for between Doctors 8 and 9, which we all know was when the Time War happened, and we still don't know the details of what all he did. Going for "I want to be a warrior, and I will enlist this magic planet for help to trigger a regeneration" business is a bit . . . heavy-handed, I guess?

John Hurt is a wonderful actor, so I have faith he'll be entertaining to watch if nothing else. I'm kind of surprised he's in this, because he doesn't do a lot of TV. I mean, yeah, I saw him in the finale last time, but it still surprises me.

[xerinmichellex.livejournal.com]

Here in my "other" regeneration, which means I'm able to get to it now, yay.

LOL.

I'm really waiting for the special to air because there's a small part of me that hopes it'll redeem itself. (But...Moffat.) However, shoehorning Hurt's 8.5 Doctor really undercuts Nine/Ten's character development and rewrites an integral part of the Time War.

It also bothers me that if want to re-explore the Time War, why not just have Eight be the Time War Doctor instead of this "Warrior Lord", as is previously the accepted canon. I'm trying not to hold it against Hurt--he is a fabulous actor--but he just sticks out as a sore thumb. I mean, it's Moffat's schtick to have his creation overshadow an established creation of someone else's and I feel like that's what's happening.

[rhoda-rants.livejournal.com]

Heh. Well, there's a reason I picked that icon.

[fatpie42.livejournal.com]

Shoehorning Hurt's 8.5 Doctor really undercuts Nine/Ten's character development and rewrites an integral part of the Time War

How so? Nine, Ten and Eleven are all affected by their history in the Time War and this doesn't change that, does it?

The big change here seems to be including McGann in the Time War at all. I'd always thought that this was all after he'd regenerated. Of course, part of the reason why Christopher Eccleston isn't playing the Doctor during the Time War is because he refuses to return to the role.

[xerinmichellex.livejournal.com]

The integral part of the Time War and Nine and Ten's arcs is that the Doctor ended the Time War--not some one-off, not-really-the-Doctor regeneration. Eleven, at the end of "The Name of the Doctor" refers to Hurt's regeneration as one that "wasn't worthy of the name Doctor" and seems to be setting up Hurt as the one who killed the Time Lords and ended the war.* However, Ten, at the end of his run, accepts his responsibility for ending the Time War and so much as says he'd do it again. Both of these plots compete with one another, and it is my belief that Moffat is using Hurt as a way to foist responsibility away from the Doctor and make Hurt the "bad Doctor".

*It remains to be seen if this actually happens; which is why I'm hoping the special will not go this direction and "redeem" this Hurt plotline. We'll have to see.

The big change here seems to be including McGann in the Time War at all. I'd always thought that this was all after he'd regenerated.

This is where we differ and where "shoehorning Hurt" comes into play. Eight has always been referred to as the "Time War" Doctor since New!Who within the fandom. There's the part in "Rose" where Nine clearly sees himself for the first time in the mirror and comments on his new appearance, indicating he's recently regenerated. It may be your opinion that Eight wasn't at the Time War; but based on Nine and Ten's characters arcs, Eight was the Doctor who fought the Time War.

[fatpie42.livejournal.com]

It seemed to me that it's a fairly important part of this plot that Hurt IS the Doctor. They're giving this new regeneration a lot of significance, but every version of the Doctor is drastically different from the last and yet every single one is still the same person. This is still something the Doctor does to himself. McGann's Doctor is making a choice to BE this sort of person. So I think he still takes responsibility for it.

There's the part in "Rose" where Nine clearly sees himself for the first time in the mirror and comments on his new appearance, indicating he's recently regenerated

Really? But... surely that doesn't make sense? In that first NuWho episode we ALSO see tons of photos of the Doctor from across history from things he has done before he ever met Rose. How could he have been doing all sorts of things through history if he'd only just regenerated? Does he go off and do those things in between dropping Rose off in London at some point or something?

but based on Nine and Ten's characters arcs, Eight was the Doctor who fought the Time War

I can understand the claim that Nine fought the Time War because he shouts at the (not actually) last Dalek about what he did. Of course, the other versions of the Doctor are just as much him, so if they really can't get Eccleston back for this story then it's not the end of the world. But this is the first time I've ever heard of McGann having any part in anything referenced in NuWho.

You've got to realise that McGann's movie is a bigger problem for me than simply being terrible. It features this rather anti-climactic finish for Sylvester McCoy where he's shot down by a street gang the moment he gets out of the Tardis and dies because his extra heart confused the emergency services. It's such an ignominious end for him.

(Especially when compared to the way Seven's era finishes in the webcast "Death Comes To Time" where he turns out to be a kind of Gallifreyan god and dies to stop a rogue Timelord while Ace essentially takes his place, becoming a brand new Timelord herself.)

So yeah, I don't know why fandom want to attribute the Time War plotline to McGann, but I know him as the guy whose one televised story was a humiliation to my favourite Doctor and led to Doctor Who staying off the air for nearly 10 years. - That's how I see it anyway...

I hope to hear McGann's Big Finish audio adventures at some point though. Apparently those are really good. And I must say, I can see from this short how cool a Doctor he could have been if that one-off tv movie hadn't been so appalling.

[xerinmichellex.livejournal.com]

Technically it is the same man; but the fact that Eleven says that Hurt's regeneration doesn't deserve the title of "Doctor" indicates that whoever Hurt is playing isn't a part of the previous Doctors and we're supposed to treat this person as a different entity. (Which is explains why the numbering system of Doctors won't be effected.)

In truth, I find this potion plot-point ridiculous. I don't understand why Moffat couldn't have brought McGann back and have him be the Time War Doctor and explore how the war turned TV movie!Eight into the Doctor willing to kill all the Time Lords and Daleks. I feel like that character arc would be more interesting than focusing the attention on the one-off regeneration Hurt is playing.

Really? But... surely that doesn't make sense?

I'm not saying it makes sense; I'm saying how it was presented. Nine looks in a mirror, makes a comment about his appearance as if he's seeing himself for the first time, and goes on his merry way. The presentation says that it's McGann's Doctor (Eight) to Eccleston's Doctor (Nine). Most fans figure that McGann's Doctor is the one who fought the Time War and either regenerated within the War or after the War. (I believe the Big Finish audios support this, with Eight's adventures leading up to the Time War.)

[fatpie42.livejournal.com]

A few problems with making McGann the time war Doctor:

1) Tv audiences aren't familiar with McGann outside of the tv movie and, like you said, Big Finish have done a whole load of stuff with him that tv audiences won't be privy too. (Which, sadly, is why we probably won't see Ace turning up as a time lord either.)

2) One of the few things we DO know about McGann is that he's half-human. It's not clear why this regeneration made him half-human, but I can see why they might not want to imply that the most human of all the Doctors is also the one willing to commit genocide against both the Daleks and his own people.

3) I heard on the HorrorEtc podcast that Big Finish are doing their own 50th Anniversary special with all five surviving Classic Who Doctors and with voice actors for the initial three. I don't know to what extent the Big Finish continuity matches that of NuWho, so that might be somewhat of an explanation.

4) I still think that they may well have intended to give the role to Christopher Eccleston. It may be that Paul McGann was unwilling to take the role Christopher Eccleston rejected or that they didn't think to get him involved until after they had made plans involving John Hurt. - In actual fact, this is similar reasoning as with the first series of NuWho. David Tennant was actually intended to be the first NuWho Doctor, but they realised Eccleston would be a bigger draw. Similarly here, they can't really justify choosing Paul McGann over John Hurt - and can we really blame them?


I will say though. The whole weird magical planet with the regeneration potion gave me worrying flashbacks to that whole silly Cult of Saxon thing, so I can't say I'm entirely at ease with that vid.

[xerinmichellex.livejournal.com]

A few problems with your assumption that McGann couldn't be the Time War Doctor:

1. Continuity--or the lack thereof--has never stopped the writers of Doctor Who before.

2. RTD, the guy behind this Time War that annihilated the Time Lords and Daleks, pretty much said that Eight did take part and played a major role in the Time War. Besides, the numbering itself indicates that there is no "in-between" Doctor. Hurt's role is purely a fabrication of Moffat--whose pretty much confirmed this. ("Why not a mayfly Doctor, who exists for one show only?")

3. I think plenty of people are aware of McGann and his significance to the Doctor Who franchise compared to a one-off like Hurt's regeneration. I'd care more about an established Doctor over a guy who's being crow-barred into an event that reached it's conclusion back in "The End of Time".

Honestly, I cannot believe I'm having this conversation because it's pretty much agreed upon in the fandom that Eight took part in the Time War. Whether or not he regenerated during the Time War, and Nine ended it, is up for debate. And this "8.5" Doctor has only come about since "The Name of the Doctor".

[fatpie42.livejournal.com]

A few problems with your assumption that McGann couldn't be the Time War Doctor:

It's not an assumption. It's now canon that he's not the time war Doctor. I've never stated that he couldn't have been. I absolutely accept that they could have gone that way, but I was just trying to work out why they may have decided not to.

As for what fandom decides, or the numbering system people use outside of the series to refer to the Doctors, or what RTD has to say, I can easily ignore all of that for a simple reason: Death of the Author.

Nicolas Winding Refn says that Ryan Gosling's character survives at the end of the "Drive". He can say that as much as he likes, but that doesn't make it true. At the end of "Drive" Gosling's character has what would appear to be a fatal wound. The fact that he's still alive when the credits come up does not mean that he's going to survive any more than Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid were ever going to. Authors have no right to the final word on interpretation and neither does fandom. All that really counts is what is actually in the series.

As far as I can tell (and I'm not claiming to be an authority, so please tell me of any examples I may have missed) asides from, technically, the episode title "The Eleventh Hour" (which is a play on words and need not be accurately numbering that Doctor) and, so I hear, a reference to McCoy as the seventh life of the Doctor in the 1996 tv movie, the numbering system is otherwise entirely external to the episodes.